JeepStroker.com Misfortune
After wearing the bearings on break-in on 2 New Titan stroker motors…
#1 The Build
KB 944 pistons in .030 over with the 21.73cc dish
machine work will be done by Baldwin Performance in Radford,
Va
used 4.0L block
compcam 68-231-4 with their nitriding process and lifters
Victor Reinz MLS 0.041" head gasket with 0 deck
clearance
head 0630 casting self/home ported and polished
Mopar Performance valve springs, retainers and keepers
installed at 100#
30* back cut valves, and a 3 angle valve job
Harland Sharp adjustable roller rockers
Intake is a matched 2000 with a 63mm throttle body
26# Ford injectors
Doug Thorley header.
0.010/0.010 4 counterweight from machine shop, Really wanted the 12 CW
0.010/0.010 4 counterweight from machine shop, Really wanted the 12 CW
CompCam 68-231, 0 deck and .042" gasket, SCR=9.62 and
DCR=8.23 0.042" quench
JP Performance timing set double roller
lifter bore grooving tool
Thermal Tech Coatings, their Turbo X 2000 coating good for
2000 degrees, $213
Machine shop total, $850 out the door
I got banned from JF for making fun of CheroREDkee for his
twinkle time lights
Joe Gibbs break in oil, probably a little of the comp
cams break in lube
Valvoline VR1 10w30 for after the cam break in
Break down: Parts: $2072.66 Tools: $212.37 Machine work:
$850 Total: $3135.03
It’s running. I broke the cam in correctly then changed the
oil and drove it a bit. However I have two problems.
One is an of fft fft fft fft sound that is rhythmic and increases with engine RPM
One is an of fft fft fft fft sound that is rhythmic and increases with engine RPM
That ftt ftt sound went away when i changed to spark plugs
Distinct noise from the roller rockers
600 miles on it, Changed the oil using Vavoline VR1 10w30
flex plate has a crack near the crank
replaced the flex plate because I had a sound like rod knock
replaced the flex plate and the tapping sound is still there
sewing machine noise from the roller rockers
#2- found
the source of the knocking noise- moved the crank and heard a click
forced the crank fore and aft and noticed quite a bit of
play
Crank end play is .016". Factory measurement is
.0015"-.0065". .0095"
replace the thrust bearing, it appears that the bearing
wore, or was faulty
crank thrust surface was too rough and wore the front side
of the thrust bearing
crank thrust bearing clearance 0.004”
Got it buttoned up today. Started up fine with a little of
lifter noise from the engine
Off idle it wants to stall out
Off idle it wants to stall out
after a bunch of idling and about 60 miles, Thrust bearing
clearance is at .0052"
Noise turned out to be a damaged cam with the noses
beginning to be worn off
#3- new
cam and lifters
Iski cam and Lunati Microtrol lifters
I think perhaps the cam wasn't hardened correctly
What ever went wrong went wrong quick
Got the engine back in, after pulling and installing it 4
times I'm getting good at it
I also swapped the transmission
should be doing the cam break in next, I hate breaking the cam in.
Broke the cam in for 30 minutes, drained the oil and
filled with fresh oil and filter.
Only thing that concerns me is that with 10w-30 oil hot
idle oil pressure is 15 psi
Its not under spec, but I had around 30 PSI previous
Now for the bad... that damn knock from the bell housing is
still there!!!
Two transmissions, 3 torque converters and engine gone over
with fine tooth comb
It’s at idle when hot, not present when cold. Present in all
gears
It’s not noticeable except from the bell housing
More bad news. Pulled the oil pan, there was chunks of metal
and a fine copper coat
The cam bearings are done for
Pulled one main cap and it looked fine
Pulled one rod cap and while it wasn't perfect it wasn't
good either.
Pulling the engine tomorrow
What would cause the cam bearing failure?
Yeah, I don't know what I am doing wrong.
If that wasn't enough lifter #1 stopped spinning at some
point
Once again the rear surface of the thrust bearing was well
worn
End play increased to .012"
I really don't know what caused the failure though. Bad oil
pump, maybe some issue on the cam?
Installed the cam exactly like I did several times before.
Broke it in the same way and never had a failure of
this sort
After the break in I noticed the low oil pressure
First time the cam just died, this time the bearings died
I did the break in with Joe Gibbs BR30 break in oil
and new filter
Changed the oil and filter using a Mobil1 301 and Brad Penn
10w30 oil
Sending the rockers to Harland sharp for inspection if they
got damaged
Maybe the grooved bores combined with a not up to spec oil
pump
I just don't understand how there could be not enough oil
pressure to support the cam, but still have oil pressure at all.
My roller rockers needed to be rebuilt, They said there was
dirt in the trunnions
Keep in mind they were also used on the Titan, the first cam
fail on this engine
#4- The
machine shop finished the engine. New block, new bearings, new cam, new
lifters, rebuild rockers. I reused the crank, rods, piston, pushrods and head.
The break in oil is straight 30 weight. I don't want
to break it in in this cold weather on such a heavy oil
Tomorrow morning we will break the cam in. I hate
breaking in the cam
Cam break in went well. Oil pressure was 50+ psi the whole
time. Continues to be 50 while cruising
top of valve train is making a bit of noise
Only thing I can think of is that the new lifters aren't
playing nice with the 15w-50wt break in oil
Great... now this engine developed another repeatable
failure with the Isky cams... damaged cam bearings
Now my machinist is saying the Harland Sharp rockers have
too large of an oil hole in the push rod seat and that is what causing an oil
pressure loss
The middle two bearings showed the worse damage, I don't think that pattern fits an oil
problem considering the rear and front are the last to get the oil.
Also, I checked #1 and #6 rods bearings. Aside from dirt
they didn't look bad
Of all the different cams and engine variations I have run I
never had this problem with cam bearings going out like this.
Why did you use 15W50 oil for the breakin? Isn't it way too
thick?
Oh yeah.. I used Joe Gibbs 10w30 with the last Isky cam with
the same result.
#5- I sent
one of my cranks from a previous engine off to Hesco because Lee believes the
knock that has been persistent from all stroker to be related to a taper in the
crank shaft. Lee said the crankshaft turn job was complete crap. The crank was
a .10/.10 so Hesco turned it to .20/.20 to make it right and then balanced it.
Hopefully that will take care of that knock. Hesco also matched the bearings to
the crank so I have 13 numbered ziplock bags with bearings in them.
I went with the Hesco RVOB cam
I went with the Hesco RVOB cam
Keith Black sent me a new set of .040" over pistons in
4032 alloy
It’s running. Started it around 2:45 and began the cam break
in
Now the bad news. The damn knock is still there at idle
Pulled apart the oil filter I used for break in last night. Little
shinny metal shavings
Sure enough, the bearings are dead again
I used Joe Gibbs 30wt break in oil the first time, 50wt
the second time and this time I used Brad Penn 30wt breakin oil
primed the engine for 30 minutes before start
I can see a bearing being marginal and maybe failing down
the road, but not on a cam break in
why did you prime the engine for 30 min before firing? Did I say 30? Should have been 20. I was
trying to get oil everywhere and get all the air out. I think the minimum
recommended is 5 minutes after oil gets to the push rods
Ready to do the cam break in again
Crank crank crank nothing. Try again.. it starts rough.. smooths out, then get it up to
2000 RPM. 30 seconds later it starts to miss. Crap something seriously wrong.
Go to start it again and notice that the engine light is on.. pull the codes.
P0351, P0352, P0353. Ok.. dead coil rail. I did accidently kick it a few times.
Pull the spare out and drop it in. Crank crank crank... starts again. Same
thing... rough idle, smooths out, bring it up to 2000 RPM and a few seconds
later it starts to miss. Shut it down.
I am thinking about the cam break-in instructions
Swap out the CPS, and Cam sensor. checking index again.
Lets try again.... and it finally starts. Bring it up to 2000 and vary RPM for 30 minutes
Lets try again.... and it finally starts. Bring it up to 2000 and vary RPM for 30 minutes
Change the oil filter, top up the oil
taking apart the oil filter, A few little metallic looking
items
using 30wt Brad Penn break in oil. I'll drive it a
bit
I pulled the oil pan... #3 cam bearing is gone
only idea I have now is that there is some large loss of oil
at the cam bearings
But if there is a leak at the cam bearings.... did the leak
come first, or did something else cause the bearing wear which in turn caused
the leak?
Just to refresh:
1) Comp Cam died
2) Comp Cam replaced with Isky, oil pump and pickup replaced, Lunati lifters, Joe Gibbs oil
3) Failed Clevite bearings #1
4) Thought the cam not being straight was the cause
5) Isky sent another cam, engine cleaned, new bearings all around, Johnson lifters, Brad Penn oil
6) Durabond bearing set fails after ~100 miles, oil pressure dropping
7) Found lose oil pickup on pump
8) Went with Hesco RVOB, Durabond cam bearings, Clevite main and rod, cleaned engine, Hesco lifters, Brad Penn oil
9) Durabond bearing set fails after ~100 miles, oil pressure dropping
10) Find spot where oil pump is being held off block, clean up oil drain back holes, remove timing chain damper, restrictor pushrods, HV pump and new pickup, Johnson lifters, Sealed Power bearing Brad Penn oil, check for binding again with measurements and solid lifter.
11) Bearings die again, this time with much less wear on double miles. Oil pressure was steady at 40psi hot idle.
12) present time.....
1) Comp Cam died
2) Comp Cam replaced with Isky, oil pump and pickup replaced, Lunati lifters, Joe Gibbs oil
3) Failed Clevite bearings #1
4) Thought the cam not being straight was the cause
5) Isky sent another cam, engine cleaned, new bearings all around, Johnson lifters, Brad Penn oil
6) Durabond bearing set fails after ~100 miles, oil pressure dropping
7) Found lose oil pickup on pump
8) Went with Hesco RVOB, Durabond cam bearings, Clevite main and rod, cleaned engine, Hesco lifters, Brad Penn oil
9) Durabond bearing set fails after ~100 miles, oil pressure dropping
10) Find spot where oil pump is being held off block, clean up oil drain back holes, remove timing chain damper, restrictor pushrods, HV pump and new pickup, Johnson lifters, Sealed Power bearing Brad Penn oil, check for binding again with measurements and solid lifter.
11) Bearings die again, this time with much less wear on double miles. Oil pressure was steady at 40psi hot idle.
12) present time.....
-The thinner break-in oil seemed to help, as the 50 weight
you used that one time seemed to toasted them real quick (I couldn't believe
how quick you were back at square one that time).
All the previous failures can be attributed to oil flow
issues outside the cam bearing
I'm going with a 10w-30 this time
Thinking of Valvoline NSL 10w30 racing oil
Comp cams told me it was because I was running synthetic oil
and they don't recommend using synthetic on hydraulic flat tappet cams
The bearings failed once again. I'm thinking that the
.040" clearance on #3 if the cause
#6- The
#3, which has the ID groove was nearly down past the groove
I've found someone that can hone/ream the cam bearings
He recommends using coated bearings so he installed those.
He thinks that the coated bearings will solve the problem. I doubt that
Nothing was removed from the bearings because it was all in
line and clearances no grater than .003"
Possibly an oil issue, like air in the oil
Hesco on the oil pump, It checked out fine
Could you have excessive cam walk? If you are using a timing
chain cover without the bump for the pin to ride on, maybe the cam is walking
front and back and peeling the cam bearings. I didn't use the spring on my engine.
I made a long pin out of a hardened bolt and test fitted to 0.003” cam movement
I do have the pin and spring installed and my cover does
have the nipple for the pin to ride against
I measure how far forward the cam can move with its the
spring and pin setup, .105"
If the cam is bouncing back and forth it would certainly
explain that knock sound that was always present
The cam is forced rearward by the helical cut in the
dist/oil pump drive gear
I also replaced the stock cam button setup with a static
one. I currently have .0055" cam end play
the only change was the coated cam bearings and
someone else installing them
So it needs a valve job, possibly a few guides and he would
like to install spring locators under the springs
Something that is
getting done incorrectly, and keeps getting done that same way each time
Theoretically the oil pump and the grind on the flat tappet
cam should suck the cam into the block
Maybe the more aggressive valve train is over coming the
spring and causing it to walk in and out
I am fairly certain that the knocking noise was coming
from the cam moving in and out of the block
The spring and pin setup on the 4.0L would let it move
nearly 1/8" with finger pressure. So it could have been moving quite a bit
And would the cam moving in and out cause cam bearing wear
like this?
So I am using a stock cover with a solid steel pin. Like
the stock setup but no spring and .005" end play
So, for this round the changes are: coated cam bearings,
solid cam thrust setting, re worked head and a windage tray
Its up and running. Everything is fine so far, but that is
how it always is in the beginning
Its with the HV pump
I hope you have better luck with the HV oil pump than I had;
2-roll pins, 1-dist gear, and 1-cam.
I called Hesco and asked them if they HV oil pumps in their
engines? He said "NO!, you'll chew up distributor gear and cam gear"
It has 198 miles on it. I dropped the pan and checked things
out. I didn't see any bearing material pushed out of the bearings
the theory is that the cam was waking and possibly pushing
the oil off the bearings
600 miles, drained the oil and checked the bearings. They
are fine!
I hit ~3000 miles and pulled the oil pan, valve cover, and
timing cover today. I pulled the timing cover so I could slide the cam forward
to check the cam bearings better and also to check the cam pin. I also removed
the rockers to take the pressure off the cam so I could move it easier. The cam
bearings look good, the cam pin looks good as does everything else.
Bit of an update.
#7- I learned that there was an after market thrust plate style cam available for ‘99+ blocks so I looked into getting one custom ground for my stroker
#7- I learned that there was an after market thrust plate style cam available for ‘99+ blocks so I looked into getting one custom ground for my stroker
When I removed the Hesco cam the cam bearings looked fine
with no wear
I used a stock style silent link timing set
Initially the cam end play was at .007", but I
wanted it tighter. After a bunch of figure 8s on sand paper with the gear I
landed on .004", which is what I wanted
The only hitch with the install was that when I went to
degree it the cam was 5* retarded. I fixed this by using a 4* crank woodruff
key for a SBC (Mr. Gasket 988G). It needed some massaging to get it to fit 100%
I ran the break in without issue and ran it 300 miles on the
Joe Gibbs oil as recommended
Cam installed and thrust plate bolted on.
The engine has ~5000 miles now since the last cam bearing
failure.
the wider cam lobe is better for preventing wear
What I have found to be contributing factors for camshaft
wear:
1. Skinny lobes vs Thicker Lobes
2. Metallurgical quality of cams
3. Proper oil usage with zinc additives
4. Too much seat pressure with aftermarket springs
5. Cam-walk... for mostly unknown reasons. Although my bearings had wear, the distributor gear was the most damaged and that was because of the transmission pushing the crank forward when switching into reverse. Thrust bearings were also worn of course. Not sure what could possibly cause the cam to walk when it's not a transmission problem. The only things it actually interfaces with that move are the Distributor/Synchronizer and the crankshaft, and the synchronizer moves only because the cam gears it to move
1. Skinny lobes vs Thicker Lobes
2. Metallurgical quality of cams
3. Proper oil usage with zinc additives
4. Too much seat pressure with aftermarket springs
5. Cam-walk... for mostly unknown reasons. Although my bearings had wear, the distributor gear was the most damaged and that was because of the transmission pushing the crank forward when switching into reverse. Thrust bearings were also worn of course. Not sure what could possibly cause the cam to walk when it's not a transmission problem. The only things it actually interfaces with that move are the Distributor/Synchronizer and the crankshaft, and the synchronizer moves only because the cam gears it to move
Now Read the articles about Oil. I will never use 'Break In' Oil in any of my engines.
I will only use a '99+ block with cam retainer plate and Mobil 1 oil from the start
My 'Break In' Proceedure will be
Mobil 1 5w30 oil and Bosch filter, NO ADDED ZINC OR ZDDP
Start and check for leaks, top fluids
Drive gently for 100 miles and then change the oil filter
Drive for another 500 miles, usual driving and acceleration, then change oil and filter
I will only use a '99+ block with cam retainer plate and Mobil 1 oil from the start
My 'Break In' Proceedure will be
Mobil 1 5w30 oil and Bosch filter, NO ADDED ZINC OR ZDDP
Start and check for leaks, top fluids
Drive gently for 100 miles and then change the oil filter
Drive for another 500 miles, usual driving and acceleration, then change oil and filter
